Dad of Divas

One Dad's Quest to Regain Control of his Kingdom

Trust, Growth, and Connection: A Father’s Journey with a Non-Binary Child

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This week’s episode of “The Dad and Daughter Connection” delves into the evolving journey of fatherhood, offering a heartfelt conversation with author and workplace culture expert Ed Frauenheim. Through candid storytelling and honest reflection, the episode explores what it really means to support our children—especially when their paths unfold in ways we never expected.

Dr. Christopher Lewis opens with his signature warmth, reminding listeners that the core of fatherhood isn’t perfection, but presence. The conversation quickly pivots to Ed Frauenheim’s personal growth as a father to Skyla, his strong-willed, non-binary child. Their story is not just about adjusting to pronouns or grappling with change, but about learning the art of persistent, trusting connection.

One major theme running through the conversation is trust. Ed Frauenheim candidly shares early struggles trying to control Skyla, only to discover the power of letting go—of giving space, listening deeply, and trusting his child’s autonomy. He admits the journey wasn’t always smooth, referencing honest and sometimes painful moments of conflict that led to growth. It’s the small shifts—choosing to draw beside Skyla instead of insisting on homework—that became turning points, building a deeper bond rooted in respect.

The episode masterfully unpacks the challenges of moving past parental expectations when faced with a child’s evolving identity. Ed Frauenheim reflects on the initial mourning and adjustments after Skyla came out as non-binary, and the courage it took to support them fully, even in spaces steeped in traditional notions of masculinity. Through his vulnerability, listeners are offered a blueprint for embracing discomfort as a catalyst for connection and understanding.

Additional highlights include practical tips for other dads: creating a home where listening is prioritized, learning together about new concepts, and bringing levity to sensitive journeys through shared experiences. Ed Frauenheim emphasizes the value of apologizing, modeling openness, and never giving up on the pursuit of genuine connection.

If you’re a parent, caregiver, or anyone seeking to better support the young people in your life, this episode is a must-listen. It’s a tribute to adaptability, unconditional love, and the transformative power of trust. Tune in for actionable wisdom, moving anecdotes, and inspiration to keep showing up, even when the path is uncertain.

Catch the full episode at dadanddaughterconnection.com, and remember—the journey isn’t about being perfect. It’s about being present, persistent, and ready to grow.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:
Welcome to The Dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:
If you’re looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’re in the right place. I’m Dr. Christopher Lewis, and The Dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we’ll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let’s get started. Because being a great dad isn’t just about being there. It’s about truly connecting. Welcome back to the Dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity, we have a great opportunity to be able to come together to and grow together to be able to work on those relationships that we want to have with our daughters, to help us to be able to create those solid relationships, those solid bonds that are going to help our daughters to become the people that they are becoming in their lives.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]:
That’s why, that’s why every week I love being able to introduce you to people with different experiences, people from all different types of walks of life that have had different experiences that’ll help you to be able to, I guess, in a way, reframe and to think about How are you fathering? Because not every father will father in the same ways, and that’s perfectly fine. What’s important is that we learn along the way. We take those bits that make sense. Maybe we adjust those things that don’t work for our family, and we help ourselves to become just a little bit better every day. Because by us becoming a little bit better, our kids are going to be better, and we’re going to be able to have those relationships and those— and build those connections that are going to last a lifetime. This week, we got another great guest. Ed Frauenheim is with us. And Ed is an author, a researcher, a speaker, and a workplace culture expert whose work explores how redefining masculinity can help men lead healthier, more connected, and more fulfilling lives.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]:
He’s a co-author of Reinventing Masculinity: The Liberating Power of Compassion and Connection, a book that examines the shift from outdated restrictive ideas of manhood toward a more compassionate and emotionally healthy vision of masculinity. And in addition to his work on masculinity, he’s also, also a father of 2. We’re going to talk about his own journey as a father. And we’re going to be able to talk a little bit further about what he’s had to go through in this journey that he’s been on as well. So I’m really excited to have him here. Ed, thanks so much for being here today.

Ed Frauenheim [00:02:53]:
Thanks, Christopher. It’s a real pleasure to be with you here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:56]:
It’s my pleasure having you here today. And I, I’m going to be very honest with Everyone that Ed has been on a podcast with me before, he and I did a podcast on my past podcast, Dads with Daughters. And on that podcast, we talked a lot more about Reinventing Masculinity. We’re not going to talk as much about the book this go around. So I encourage you that if you want to learn a lot more about Reinventing Masculinity, I talked to Ed right when that book came out. So I encourage you to go over, I’ll put a link in the notes today where you can find that other podcast. And you can listen there and learn even more. And but Today what we’re going to do is first we’re going to start off by chatting a little bit more about being a father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:38]:
And we’re going to talk about some of the journey that you’ve been on. And I know you have 2 kids, you have a son, and then you have a non-binary child that at birth was a daughter and now is non-binary. And we’re going to talk about that journey as well. So I always start off with a few questions that just to get a little bit of a sense about you as a dad.

Ed Frauenheim [00:03:56]:
Okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:56]:
And one of the things that I love being able to delve a little bit into is as fathers, one of the things that we try to do is we try to create those moments, those moments where we can really bond with our kids, really be able to share special times and special moments with our kids as well. What’s one of the most meaningful moments that you’ve been able to share with your youngest and what made it so special?

Ed Frauenheim [00:04:20]:
Thanks for that great question, Christopher. The one that comes to mind with my child Skyla, as you mentioned, Skyla was born in a female body and now identifies as non-binary. Maybe when Skyla was 9 or so, we were butting heads a lot. We were in conflict in, in part because Skyla is quite strong-willed and I can be a little bit controlling as well, or especially back then as a dad. And I remember this moment where I was in charge of making sure the kids, and Skyla in particular, got started on their homework. And I said, Skyla, time to do your homework now. And Skyla had been doing something with like cutouts and, and making some drawings, and they said, I’m, I’m, I’m almost done. Why don’t you draw with me.

Ed Frauenheim [00:05:02]:
And I did. I kind of let down my kind of controlling guard, if you will, and immersed myself a bit in Skyla’s world. And they were making these interesting characters, cartoon characters. I can’t remember the name right now, but I learned how Skyla was drawing them, and I drew my own, and it was a loving experience. And then after we did that for maybe 20, 30 minutes, Skyla happily went on to her homework. their homework. And I say her there, Christopher, because you and I were talking before the podcast started about how it’s— I’m still struggling to get the pronouns right, even though I’m trying to honor as best I can Skyla’s non-binary identity. But many years of calling Skyla by female pronouns are still hard to shake sometimes.

Ed Frauenheim [00:05:43]:
And Skyla, to their credit, gives me a lot of grace, a lot of room for growth there, and does not jump down my throat when I throw out a she or her. So anyways, to me, it was a moment of connection, a moment of realizing I could trust my child. I could trust that I didn’t have to be this disciplinarian and give more space in the relationship and really kind of honor Skyla’s will to chart their course and figure out what they want to do and when. And yeah, I had some boundaries to set, but being a little flexible in that moment really made a difference and I think helped us to repair a bond that wasn’t so strong and has gotten stronger ever since in a lot of ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:20]:
All of us are having to balance. And as you talked about, Skyla tends to be strong-willed. You said that you were strong-willed at the same time. And we try to do this balancing act Because all of our kids are trying to find that independence for themselves. And especially, I have a child that’s very strong-willed. And I know, especially in that time where they were first pushing that independence, it was challenging. It was challenging in many different ways because they really wanted that independence. How did you balance guiding Skyla while also giving them the independence to grow into the person that they want to be? ultimately have become?

Ed Frauenheim [00:06:58]:
I would say that a couple of things really helped me strike the balance. One of them was actually my former employer, Great Place to Work, and its mantra of trust. The research that originally began this organization, Great Place to Work, which is the company behind the Fortune 100 Best Companies to Work For list— it surveys employees and finds out which ones are having the best experience at work— it all came down to, do people feel like they can trust their leaders? Do they trust each other? Do they have good bonds at work? And so this mantra of trust was big for me back in that day. I’ve been out of Great Place to Work for about 6 years now, but I was reminded of it by my wife a lot. She would say, Ed, you’re not necessarily practicing what you preach with respect to Skyla. You say trust your employees and build trust with them, but are you really trusting your own child? And she was right that I often— oftentimes I wasn’t. And I worried that Skyla’s resistance, her acting out occasionally, was a sign that she could be a sociopath. You know, I was like, I was worried that she was just not going to be a civil, polite person.

Ed Frauenheim [00:07:59]:
And, but I was wrong in that. What I found, and I heard this from other parents, Skylar was really wonderfully behaved with almost all of her friends’ parents. And we had school, her teachers, they considered her a model student in a lot of ways and a model friend. They saved a lot of their resistance from Rowena and me, which I gather can happen a lot when, when parents are trying to have a more, a parenting style that’s not governed by fear. Such that we didn’t like try to scare or physically hit Skyla in punishment. It was about consequences. It was about conversations, mostly, these consequences of acting out. So we did set these boundaries.

Ed Frauenheim [00:08:35]:
And as I said with that opening story, eventually I, I kind of came to see it. I could trust Skyla. In fact, I needed to trust Skyla more. And I came to see that strong-willedness as a positive, Christopher. And I saw one of the places I got to see it more was that I think helped me was in on the soccer field. Skyla was a a standout soccer player for many years and ultimately was on the team that won the city championship in San Francisco in high school. And so I think that mantra from work applied by my wife and then seeing how, you know, being assertive, being aggressive is a positive thing in the sports realm, all those helped me to soften and make more space for Skyla in our relationship and I think build a stronger bond with them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:17]:
You know, not every time, as you were just talking about, as you’re raising a child is It’s going to be many times where it’s going to be fraught with challenge. What are some intentional ways that you worked to strengthen your bond with Skyla, especially during those challenging times?

Ed Frauenheim [00:09:35]:
I would say that I really tried to be there for Skyla on the school front and the sports front. I coached Skyla’s soccer team up until the end of 5th grade and then was a fan throughout their high school years. And as Skyla got into middle school and then most, a very academically rigorous public high school here in San Francisco, Lowell High School. I really tried to make sure I was there to support them as they studied for AP History, AP US History, read the text with them and watched the kind of notes they were taking, helped with papers. As a trained writer, journalist, could be an editor for them as they, as they wrote papers and they became a pretty good strong writer even in the high school level. So those are some ways I did that. And I think it was a way of demonstrating my love, my deep trust, my care for Skyla. And to this day, they ask me to edit papers and edit memos.

Ed Frauenheim [00:10:29]:
We have that relationship of support, and it’s been, it’s been one of those intentional ways I’ve tried to be a good dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:35]:
As I said, none of us are infallible. We’re all humans. We’re all people that are going to make mistakes as we go through our own experiences as fathers. What’s a mistake that you’ve made as a father, and what did you learn from it about fostering Better or more positive connections with Skyla?

Ed Frauenheim [00:10:53]:
Why do you have to ask that kind of a question, Christopher? The thing that pops up to my mind as maybe one of the worst moments and choices I made was treating Skyla like someone I could control in that early childhood phase into their late elementary years, you might say. Because I remember this moment where we were having a conflict and Skyla was having a tantrum of sorts, wasn’t doing what I, or I think my wife, wanted them to do. And I remember carrying Skylar like a football down the street to the car. I think we had to go somewhere and it was humiliating all around. Like they were too big. I mean, they might’ve been in 2nd or 3rd grade when I did this. And the whole time I’m carrying Skylar literally like kicking and screaming as I’m walking like a block and a half to my car parked in this San Francisco neighborhood. And I knew that they were embarrassed and shamed by this.

Ed Frauenheim [00:11:41]:
And, and I was feeling ashamed of like what kind of an— and especially cuz I was in public. During this time. And I think in some ways that public embarrassment helped me to— that was the last time I tried to physically control their body, you know, when raising them. We shifted toward these longer and more, in some ways, trying boundaries that were a lot about conversation. You do something that breaks a rule or breaks a boundary, we’re gonna talk about it. And Skylar hated that, you know, at times, you know, but they, they couldn’t do what they wanted to do until we talked through it. And that meant Both my wife and I and Skylar were stuck with each other, if you will. But I think that paid off over time.

Ed Frauenheim [00:12:16]:
And I tried to learn from that mistake of manhandling my child at an age that was not really appropriate for it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]:
You definitely have to learn and you have to find that balance for yourself and figure out what is right at the right time and what is right that’s age appropriate. Like you said, it’s not always easy to determine and, and you’re definitely going to make mistakes along the way. But you definitely also have to do whatever we can to be able to support them in who they’re becoming, but also who we’re becoming, and know that it’s okay to trip, it’s okay to fall, and it’s okay to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and keep moving forward. And I’ve heard it from many fathers that have been on the show in the past that you just have to own it. And you have to say, you know, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake, and you tell your kid that. And I’m sorry.

Ed Frauenheim [00:13:05]:
Can I follow up on that, Christopher? Because I think that’s a great point you’re making. That idea of apologizing, I have seen that as a strength, something I determined I was going to do from a pretty young age as a father, if you will. And I remember feeling really frustrated that— and with my own father, who rarely if ever apologized for his own anger outbursts, for bad choices as a parent or spouse that we witnessed as the 3 kids in our family. And I feel good about that idea of at least if I have lost my cool or made a mistake as a parent, I have really tried to apologize every time. And I think that that modeled something good for my kids, that they could see that it’s okay to make a mistake. It’s okay to— and in fact, it’s important to acknowledge mistakes, to say you’re trying to get better. I think it’s over time helped them to give me grace as a father as I’ve continued to make mistakes along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]:
Every one of us as dads always are trying to find ways to support our kids. And I guess as Skyla has gotten older, what do you do to support Skyla in pursuing their passions and their dreams?

Ed Frauenheim [00:14:14]:
I guess some of the things that I mentioned before, like trusting them, giving them space to do their thing, and to support them academically, that’s continued and taken on some new shapes. Right now, as we talked about before, before the show, Skyla is studying in Bologna, the University of Bologna, an academy of art there in the city of Bologna. for the semester from January to about June. And that program has been wonderful for them. They’re usually— they’re a University of California at Santa Cruz student. And this time abroad has been wonderful. It’s also been really challenging to get through the bureaucracy of studying abroad, of getting visas, of getting the coursework that they need, navigating financial questions, of travel questions. So I’ve really just tried to be there for them as they’ve tried to get through these hurdles.

Ed Frauenheim [00:14:59]:
Like recently, for example, Skylar asked me to help with a a note to one of their professors asking that a class that they took at University of Bologna count as a requirement for a Santa Cruz degree. And so we worked back and forth with this memo or email to kind of make the best case that this literature class should count as a critical thinking, critical reading class for Skyla. So it’s still supporting them with time and energy, but in some newer territories of academic and institutional bureaucracy and requirements. And it’s very gratifying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]:
Skyla.

Ed Frauenheim [00:15:34]:
is increasingly expressive about her appreciation for the help I’ve given and just the way she— they have matured. But the trust I had early on is proving true. They are not anything like a sociopath. They are like an incredibly thoughtful and kind and polite and curious young person. And I get to have that relationship with this ever more mature human being.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:56]:
So we’ve been talking about the fact that Skyla has come out to you as non-binary. Bring me back To that point, when they first shared that part of themselves with you, what was that experience like for you as a father?

Ed Frauenheim [00:16:09]:
It was intense, Christopher. I remember that the moment that it came about was when Skylar was applying to college and put on their UC, University of California application that they were non-binary. And that was the first time I learned that that’s how Skylar was identifying. And there was some mourning that I had to go through. I loved calling Skyla my little lady. That was my nickname for her. I call my wife lady. It might be a little anachronistic, but, you know, it’s part of our internal language.

Ed Frauenheim [00:16:38]:
And I would call Skyla my little lady, and I couldn’t do that anymore, you know. And so I actually started calling them my young person, which is very kind of stilted on some level, but it’s now taken on its own life. So I say, how are you doing, young person? Adapt and adopt their identity. And I would say, even though that moment was difficult in some ways, there was a sadness to kind of quote unquote losing a daughter, I feel like I gained a better relationship over time. I think Skyla, as I see it, really does embody a lot of both the archetypical feminine and masculine. All that strong-willedness, that assertiveness, to me reflects this integration of the 2 sacred genders, if you will. And so I think they’ve kind of come into their own as a non-binary person more than ever before. And so it’s a joy to see them thriving.

Ed Frauenheim [00:17:25]:
And I think the gender identity is a part of that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]:
So many fathers have expectations. We have expectations or assumptions about who our kids will become. How did you navigate adjusting your own expectations while continuing to support and love Skyla unconditionally?

Ed Frauenheim [00:17:44]:
I would say that a lot of my expectations were turned into uncertainties with the new gender identity that came about 3 and a half years ago, maybe. And I didn’t know whether Skyla would change how they presented themselves, would change their clothes, or were they going to potentially pursue a trans transition? It was a kind of a new world for me to learn more about, but I have come to really kind of— my worries have eased, if you will, and the expectations are more just Skyla as my child. I expect that they’re going to continue this path, and I’m excited to see how it unfolds for them. They continue to kind of Mostly present themselves in a feminine way. I would say skirts and makeup and clothing that is more leaning toward what you might consider females would wear typically. And I feel like I’ve become used to who they are. And I don’t think about it that often, honestly, anymore. And those expectations that were confused maybe initially, or my uncertainties around who they were going to become, have not really plagued me much or been a lot of what I’ve worried about.

Ed Frauenheim [00:18:51]:
I worry about stuff like, are they going to get the courses they need? Are they going to find a job after college? The kind of worries of probably any father about their kid in college.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:59]:
What are some of the most important things that Skyla needed from you during their transition? And how did you learn to support them as they were going through that?

Ed Frauenheim [00:19:11]:
I’m guessing that Skyla needed to hear that I honored their choice. And it’s funny as I look back at it, Christopher, but I think that one sign of that was getting the pronouns right. And I think that Skylar was a little more sensitive to me misgendering in the earlier phases of their, their shift to being non-binary. And we both sort of relaxed. I mean, I, I wouldn’t say relaxed in the sense of I am completely relaxed about, I don’t care what pronouns I use. I’m trying to use the right pronouns for them. But I would say that they’re less critical of me if I don’t get the pronouns right now than they were initially. But I think I demonstrated to Skylar over time that, yeah, I’m going to honor this.

Ed Frauenheim [00:19:49]:
I don’t totally understand. what it means that I’m going to learn and did my best to do that. I went to some educational sessions or made some connections with folks to understand this relatively new way to my experience of defining oneself on gender terms. And at this point, I think the two of us are largely in sync around the identity and the non-binary identity and treating each other more like father and child.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:13]:
I said at the very beginning that you wrote a book on reinventing masculinity. And I guess as you look at being a father of a non-binary child, how has Having a non-binary child challenged or expanded your understanding of gender and masculinity?

Ed Frauenheim [00:20:28]:
It has pushed me to be braver and walking my own talk. I speak and give workshops in some pretty hyper-masculine territories, a niche of working with folks in the ski lift profession. Kind of a strange, very specific niche that I kind of randomly stumbled into. I love it. I love the folks in there, most of whom are guys, but I still occasionally get intimidated by all these guys with beards and mirrored sunglasses on top of their caps. They’re like tough dudes out there in the snow in the middle of the night grooming hills or clearing out chairlifts. And I can feel a bit of trepidation, a bit of worry when I talk about having a non-binary child, but I typically do. And it’s caused me to have to be brave around not conforming to that old outdated, what I call confined masculinity, where we are intolerant, where guys are intolerant of difference, whether it’s sexual orientation, Whether it’s this gender identity, whether it’s non-binary identities, and to sort of like be very judgmental as men.

Ed Frauenheim [00:21:27]:
So I’ve been called to sort of be more courageous. That’s one of the six C’s they talk about around reinventing masculinity, along with curiosity and compassion, connection. You mentioned in the subtitle of the book commitment. I’ll start about contemplation, but but the courage piece to bravely say I am the proud father of a non-binary kid is something that I’ve had to live up to, and I’m glad to say I mostly have, and and most. Most of the response I’ve gotten is positive, or certainly not negative. No one’s challenged me to fight. I’m gonna have to fight you because you’re a father of a non-binary daughter. Like, not okay.

Ed Frauenheim [00:21:59]:
I think a lot of guys, when they’re given permission to open up that cramped definition of masculinity that we— many of us grew up with, they’re hungry for it, and they’re more curious than I would have maybe thought. So that, I think, is one of the main ways I’ve had to live into my own, my own words, my own philosophy. Thanks to Skyla’s choice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]:
For fathers whose children may be questioning their identity, what are some practical ways that they can create a home environment where their child feels safe, seen, and accepted?

Ed Frauenheim [00:22:32]:
That’s a good one. I think one thing is to make a lot of space for listening as a dad. Really kind of open your ears up and say, I’d love to talk about what you’re reflecting on, thinking about with respect to your identity or how you’re going to define yourself. So announce that you’re ready to listen and actually do listen. A lot of talking and try to paraphrase, you know, do the active listening that we know helps relationships. I would say another thing is to demonstrate that you’re trying to learn about this territory as well and let your kid know you’re reading articles or looking at other kind of educational content that may help explain this territory. And a third thing might be to try to have some fun with it. And I’m thinking about looking at movies together that may play around with some of these questions of identity, gender identity, non-binary identity, trans identity.

Ed Frauenheim [00:23:23]:
I don’t immediately have one in mind. You know, there’s been a lot of interesting film and TV show content that has been cutting edge in this stuff. I’m even watching a series called La Brea. It’s, I guess, some years old. It’s on Netflix right now, and it doesn’t have the trans piece, but it does have same-sex couple issues in there. And so I’m just thinking about how it doesn’t have to be super heavy all the time. There can be some entertainment built into your joint exploration of these questions of identity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:50]:
You know, I was just thinking that in what you were just saying, that as you’ve gone through this, I’m sure that there have been moments, there’s been things and things that you’ve learned and things that you’ve been able to appreciate in the journey, along with the challenges as well. What’s been the greatest gift or unexpected blessing that has come from walking alongside Skyla on this journey?

Ed Frauenheim [00:24:12]:
Reciprocated love. One of the biggest challenges that I had as a dad of Skyla was that for a number of years, maybe going back to that middle elementary timeframe up through maybe into high school even, like, Skyla was very reticent to say I love you to me. And it might have had something to do with going through adolescence, puberty. She also was very— didn’t want to have hugs either. They didn’t want to have hugs. And I just tried to be consistent about telling them I love them every night. you know, as they’re going to bed. And gradually it has become a two-way street on sharing that we love each other.

Ed Frauenheim [00:24:50]:
It actually may have helped that I’ve had some health challenges in recent years. Like, I had a mild heart attack in 2021 during the pandemic caused by stress. That’s what the diagnosis was. And I remember Skylar giving me a hug in the hospital, and that was very dear, telling me that they love me. And then over this past year, I wrestled with appendix cancer. I’m just coming out of a year’s worth of treatments. I’m cancer-free. of now, and hoping to stay that way for a while, if not forever.

Ed Frauenheim [00:25:18]:
And again, during this time, Skyla has been very caring and giving out hugs and I love yous. And I don’t know if I would have predicted that would have ever happened back when we were in our most butting-of-heads times, around the time that I first talked about when I’m telling her to do their homework. So it’s a delight, and I’m very grateful for our mutual affections, mutual shows of affection.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]:
And if Skyla was sitting here today, what would you hope that they would say about how you showed up for them as a father during this transition?

Ed Frauenheim [00:25:48]:
I would hope they would say I was— they would probably say, Dad, you’re so clueless sometimes. And that’s true. I have been. And I think they have a wonderful relationship with my wife. And I think they see us as playing different roles at times. Like, I’m the lead editor, if you will, on Skyla’s papers, even though Rowena is a great writer as well. And I would hope they would say this, and I think it’s accurate, that collectively, we parents have shown up and helped them get through this time. And thankfully, I don’t think Skyla has had some of the challenges in choosing this non-binary or identifying as non-binary as some young people around the country or the world have, because Skyla has grown up in San Francisco, a very liberal-minded city.

Ed Frauenheim [00:26:27]:
They go to University of Santa Cruz, one of the hippiest schools you can possibly go to. And they’ve been surrounded by family and friends that have been very welcoming and understanding for the most part. So it hasn’t taken a big lift of emotional support from me or my wife, I don’t think, maybe compared to someone who’s identifying this way and in a much more conservative area of the country, middle of Missouri, say. I don’t know, but that— it’s my sense is that it’s more been showing up for them as a, as a young adult, more so, or as much as being a non-binary person. That might be my guess.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:59]:
Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our Dad Connection. 6 more questions to delve a little bit more into you as a dad. You ready?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:06]:
I’m ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:06]:
What’s one word that describes your relationship with Skyla?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:11]:
I’ll go with loving. Pretty simple.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:13]:
What’s the best piece of dad advice you’ve ever received?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:16]:
Trust your kid.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]:
And what’s one activity that you and Skyla love doing together?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:22]:
Hiking, or more generally, outdoor recreation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:26]:
And if you could give Skyla one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:30]:
To try to calm down and trust in how things are unfolding. I haven’t always abided by that myself. I, I get pretty anxious, and I think unfortunately Skyla sometimes follows me in that trait.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:42]:
What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Ed Frauenheim [00:27:46]:
That I can build trust, that I can loosen up. That is something that I’m pleasantly surprised by over the years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:54]:
And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Ed Frauenheim [00:28:01]:
I think I would say keep at it. Keep being present with your kids, with your daughters. There may be times where they’re pushing you away, And I’m not saying push back to stay right next to them, but I think the key is to sort of make clear that you’re there for them. You’re ready to talk. You’re ready to engage and try to build these activities where you can do stuff together. But the overall message is persistence.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:23]:
Well, Ed, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today and for sharing your journey with Skyla. If people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Ed Frauenheim [00:28:32]:
I would suggest come to my Substack page. I have a Substack newsletter called frauentimes.substack.com. Uh, where I’ve been chronicling a lot of the, the lessons of this past year of cancer, including my relationship with my kids and Skyla. I can be found on LinkedIn, and I have a website, edfrownheim.com, but happy to, to connect with folks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:51]:
Again, Ed, thank you so much for being here today. I know this journey will only continue. You’ll continue to learn. Skyla will continue to learn, but I appreciate you sharing what you’ve learned thus far, and I wish you all the best.

Ed Frauenheim [00:29:03]:
Thank you so much, Christopher. And it’s great to be here with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:06]:
That’s a wrap for this episode of The Dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn’t about being perfect. It’s about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don’t forget, you can find all our episodes at dadanddaughterconnection.com. Until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Speaker D [00:29:37]:
We’re all in the same boat, and it’s full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals. We buy them presents. Bring your A-game, ’cause those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters and muscle men, get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:29]:
Be the best dad you can be.

Speaker D [00:30:30]:
Be the best dad you can be.

Laughter, Listening, and Lessons: Keys to Raising Confident Daughters

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If you’re a dad eager to strengthen your relationship with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’ll want to tune into the latest episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast. This episode dives deep into real stories, practical advice, and genuine reflections on the journey of fatherhood.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode welcomes guest Daryle Brown, a retired director of Social Justice and IT at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, and a father of two adult daughters. What emerges is a warm, honest conversation filled with the kind of wisdom every dad could benefit from.

Consistency and Open Communication:
Dr. Christopher Lewis and Daryle Brown emphasize the importance of being consistently present and level-headed in your daughter’s life (03:03), regardless of the circumstances. Daryle Brown shares how maintaining open channels of communication allowed his daughters to feel comfortable coming to him with anything, even the difficult topics.

Balancing Guidance with Independence:
A recurring theme is the challenge of balancing parental guidance with granting daughters the freedom to make their own choices (06:27). Daryle Brown explains how crucial it is to support, not control, and to accept their individualism—even when their paths or decisions differ from our expectations.

Intentional Engagement:
Being an involved dad is about more than just showing up; it’s about active participation (09:35). Whether attending soccer games or offering life advice, Daryle Brown highlights the impact of being genuinely engaged and available during both the ups and downs.

Listening and Patience:
Another heartfelt takeaway is the power of listening—really listening—before offering advice (15:16). Patience is key, both in conversations and in the natural progression of a child’s growth. Daryle Brown also credits humor and shared laughter as essential elements in building enduring connections.

Lasting Wisdom for Dads:
In his closing advice, Daryle Brown urges dads to be patient, listen deeply, and infuse their relationships with laughter. As he reminds us, “Humor is so critical… it just melts the challenges and the difficulties.”

This episode is packed with down-to-earth insights and encouragement. Subscribe to the “Dad and Daughter Connection” and discover practical ways to show up as the dad your daughter needs. Listen now and keep building those strong, lasting bonds!

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:
If you’re looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’re in the right place. I’m Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we’ll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let’s get started, because being a great dad isn’t just about being there. It’s about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week I love having you come back to learn, to grow, to be able to find new ways to be able to build those strong relationships that you want to build with your daughters. And that’s why this show exists every week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]:
I love being able to have you here to gain some hints, some tips, some tricks, some things that you can use right away, to be able to demystify some things and to be able to figure out some ways in which you might be able to adjust what you’re doing, to be able to create those connections. And I do that every week by bringing you different people, people with different experiences that have done fatherhood in different ways. And I love being able to do that because I think all of us can learn even that no matter where we are in this journey of fatherhood. You know, I’ve got two daughters. I know you’ve got daughters, and that’s why this is important. I learned from our guests. I know you do, too. And today we’ve got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]:
Darrell Brown is with us. And Darrel is someone I’ve known for a number of years. He actually was a guest of a past podcast that I did in the past, and I talked to him about fatherhood then, but we’re going to be talking it more. Darrell just retired as the director of Social justice and IT for Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago and now is living on a farm. So a little bit different and different experiences, but I’m really excited to be able to talk to him, catch up and talk a little bit more about his own journey with his daughters. Darrell, thanks so much for being here today.

Daryle Brown [00:02:24]:
Thank you. It’s a pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]:
Well, I’m really excited to be able to have you here today. And I guess I know you’ve got two daughters. They’re adults now and doing Their things. And I know that they’ve some really amazing things happening in their lives. I’d love to have you think back to your relationship with your daughters and what’s one of the most meaningful moments that you’ve been able to share with your daughters and what made it so special?

Daryle Brown [00:02:47]:
Well, I think that it’s hard to gauge a moment that was just life changing, so to speak. I think what’s been more important in the relationship I have with my daughters is consistency. Them understanding that they could pretty much talk to me about anything, being level headed. When you hear things that may not exactly be along the path that you may want them to go or have them thinking along the lines that you want them to be thinking and to be able to accept their individualism. I think that’s kind of the tone that I’ve taken with them over the years. And it’s worked to the extent that we still communicate very openly, very freely when alcohol or marijuana, those types of things. When my children decided to experiment, so to speak, it was not something that they did secretively. I took my girls out for their first drinks.

Daryle Brown [00:03:38]:
Well, not really, but it was supposed to be that way. I remember now this is my baby daughter, Kamara, my youngest daughter, so she’s 31 now, I think. And I remember her coming to town because she was in college, out of town, she came to town and I remember finding her id, her drinking eligible ID that wasn’t real and being just terribly concerned because what if you get caught with two driver’s licenses and you get pulled over? What kind of damage is that going to do to your whole life? And of course she minimizes, she was like, oh dad, you know, it’s no big deal, everybody does it, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. But for me it was, it was very concerning. It was a prayer moment because I know how the system can react to these types of situations and you never know how deep that rabbit hole is going to run. So needless to say, she grew out of that. She’s always been brilliant and that has come to play through these later years. And I think I may have mentioned to you she just defended her dissertation at Harvard and we’ll be going to the graduation in a few weeks.

Daryle Brown [00:04:43]:
So she turned out all right, even though that was a pretty scary moment. But you have those occasions when they will surprise you and not necessarily understand all the ramifications of decisions that they’re making. So my older daughter’s actually been married. She was married for five years and she’s been probably divorced for five years now, maybe longer. We had a interesting. I wouldn’t call it traumatic situation. Again, these things affect me more than they affect them sometimes. So when she was going through her divorce, she didn’t tell anybody? Well, she didn’t tell me there were people that knew her sister, knew my wife’s best friend, Cynthia, knew she had support in that portion of her life, and it just wasn’t me.

Daryle Brown [00:05:29]:
And I don’t think my wife either. And when she finally told us the dirty deed was done, paperwork was signed, it was, like, over. And I think part of it was that she thought that we might try to talk her out of it. And again, that’s my trying to understand why she didn’t tell us about what she was going through at the time. But at any rate, you know, it happened. There were no children involved, so it was pretty much a clean split. I was pretty sad because I liked him, but of course I liked him based on the relationship that he and I had. I wouldn’t have liked him if I had known the relationship that he and my daughter were having.

Daryle Brown [00:06:03]:
So that was. I don’t know if these were monumental or as you had described it earlier. Hopefully they kind of fit in the.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:10]:
Sure. And one of the things that I know, I mean, is that you’ve been busy in your career, and you’ve had lots of different things that you’ve done in your career. You’ve been a busy person, and there’s been lots of things that you’ve balanced as a professional, as a, you know, personally, in your own life, et cetera, and as a father, you have to balance. So talk to me about balance. And how did you balance not only what you were doing, but really how did you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into the people that they became?

Daryle Brown [00:06:38]:
Well, Christopher, it starts with having a good partner. And even though my wife was a career person also, I think early in our marriage, she probably did a lot more with and for the kids than I did. I think I probably got better once we moved to Chicago. Part of the stress was a lot of travel. I did a lot of travel on my job, but we made it through. And I certainly tried to give my kids the attention that I could when we were together. When I was around, I may have been busy with work, but I wasn’t super busy with other stuff. So it was like, yeah, I was busy with work, but I was pretty family focused.

Daryle Brown [00:07:17]:
So, I mean, that helped, I think. I think church helped. The fact that we regularly attended church. As a family, our church happened to have a good child children’s church. So we had that going for us. It was a bit of a challenge moving to Chicago away from family, because, as I may have mentioned before, we moved to Chicago when my youngest daughter was like 2 and my older daughter was maybe 9. So that moving away from the whole support structure that we had in Detroit, lots of family, lots of friends, to a new city, that created a bit of stress, but it also, I think, created a bond. We were very, very lucky to have great neighbors, both on one side of us and behind us, with kids the same age as my younger daughter.

Daryle Brown [00:08:21]:
So that that helped very well. We discovered a wonderful Montessori school for my younger daughter that was a great contributor to kind of a steadiness in. In her life. So a lot of different pieces have to come together. And Christopher, I’ll tell you, the reality is we were very fortunate that we were financially pretty well off. Not rich, but, you know, pay a lot for the bricks in Oak park, so we could afford to live in Oak Park. They have very good schools there. They have an incredible.

Daryle Brown [00:08:56]:
I guess I’ll call it a recreation department for the township. We have two beautiful facilities with pools, and they’ve added things since. I’ve kind of aged out of that group. But, I mean, it was a great town to raise a family. So that’s another thing that went very well. Very fortunate. Between church and picking a good town to live in. Very fortunate.

Daryle Brown [00:09:14]:
I don’t take for granted the fact that we could afford to do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:17]:
Every father has to really think about the things that they’re doing to be able to build those bonds. And this show’s all about creating those strong bonds. What are some intentional ways that you worked, either in the past or even currently, to strengthen your bond with your daughters, especially during those challenging times?

Daryle Brown [00:09:35]:
First of all, you got to be participatory. If the girls play soccer, you got to go to soccer games, you got to be there. You got to be yelling on the sideline. And more importantly, don’t get me in trouble on this. You have to be able to give them that additional coaching that the coach may not give them. So there was this one team, and this is a soccer league. They were just incredible. They had great players at every position.

Daryle Brown [00:09:59]:
They had speed, they had attitude. And the attitude was the part where I had to coach my daughter. Now, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the concept of playing the dozens. Have you ever heard about playing the dozens? That’s kind of an African American community thing. And it’s when you talk about people’s parents. So my daughter was complaining about how these girls are always talking about us, but I can’t hardly get my head wrapped around it. And I said, next time she does that, you just look her in the eye and say, your mama, and keep it moving. So, you know, sometimes your teachings are a little unorthodox.

Daryle Brown [00:10:32]:
And mom was not happy. Mom was not happy about it. But the reality is, it’s something that me and. Me and Kamara still laugh about today because it worked. You know, it’s just kind of shocking. Just like, what did she just say? So, yeah, I taught my daughter how to play the dozens. I’m not proud, but it happened. So just to say, though, the point of it is, you got to be engaged to the point where, you know, they tell you what’s going on, they tell you their ups and their downs, and they seek your counsel.

Daryle Brown [00:11:01]:
And sometimes the coaches can get them through it, but sometimes the parents have to kind of boost them. Now, I. I will say one of my disappointments was when Kamara was about to move from green belt to brown belt in karate and instead said, dad, I’m done with karate. And that was it. She never went back to another class. And I. I had lots of conversation about it, and nope, didn’t work a comparable thing for my older daughter, Nia. So I don’t know if this is great communications, but when she was going to college, decisions.

Daryle Brown [00:11:37]:
So she had decided that she wanted to go to Boston College. And the reason why was that Boston College, as it had a great international relations program, and she was talking about international relations, they had lots of opportunities to travel abroad, and my wife and I relented, and it was outside of our range, but we said, okay, this is going to be great for you. This is what you want to do. And so she’s up there at orientation, and she’s calling home, just kind of check in, blah, blah, blah. And she says, oh, and I changed my major to psychology. And I’m like, psychology, psychology. Every school in the country has a psychology program. So she ended the conversation with, dad, you ruining my best day ever.

Daryle Brown [00:12:20]:
So I like to tell you I work my way out of that, but I didn’t. She was mad at me for some time, but. So all the communications we do are not necessarily going to bear fruit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]:
No, they’re not. They’re not. They’re definitely not all going to bear fruit, as you mentioned. And none of us are infallible. We are human. And we make mistakes. I guess, as you think about fatherhood for yourself and raising your daughters and even, or even today with adult daughters, what’s a mistake that you’ve made as a father? And what did you learn about it from. No.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:55]:
And what did you learn from it about fostering a positive connection with your daughters?

Daryle Brown [00:13:02]:
I don’t know if I list this as a mistake, but this past Christmas, we vacationed in Jamaica with my older daughter’s partner and his family, and things were going great. We had a great time. But the roads on this particular island were loaded with potholes. And so we’re driving. I don’t know, we may have been driving to the airport with the rental car, and my daughter was in the front seat, my Navigator, but she kept trying to tell me where to drive on the road. You’re too close to the center. You’re too close to the edge. You’re too close to this.

Daryle Brown [00:13:32]:
And we got into basically a screaming match to the point where when we finally got to the airport, I was like, just get out. And we ended up as. I don’t know what exactly went wrong, but we ended up missing our flight and having to reschedule. And as far as I was concerned, it was her fault. And I was like, don’t, don’t. I won’t talk to you. And I would say that the lesson learned is give it time. Because we were a heated argument, we’re fussing at each other.

Daryle Brown [00:13:59]:
We don’t want to speak to each other anymore, and we didn’t for, I don’t know, two, three weeks maybe. Eventually, we talked again. We didn’t go back into this conversation, however. We just picked it back up, you know, So I don’t know how great that advice is. It would just be, hey, sometimes you just got to let it go. There’s not going to be a person that’s right or a person that’s wrong, and you just have to, you know, just have to move on. And that’s okay, too. It’s okay not to define who was

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:24]:
right as you think about your daughters, too. Every one of us, as fathers, have to find ways to be able to show our daughters that they are valued and heard. What did you do intentionally to help your daughters to feel that they truly were valued and heard?

Daryle Brown [00:14:41]:
Well, I have a background in restorative justice practices, but that came later. I think I’ve just been fortunate to have been in situations and places where listening was important. In rj, certainly listening is important. My wife and I participated in a Program, I don’t know, 40 years ago, maybe 35 years ago, where we went into schools and we taught. I say taught, but it was kind of an enrichment type program in struggling schools. And as part of that, one of the important components was learning to listen and hearing people. And there are lots of other things to it, and a lot of those we implemented in how we raised our own children. But I think the important thing is being able to hear them out.

Daryle Brown [00:15:26]:
Before you offer up your life wisdom, you’ll be surprised at what you’ll learn. I think being available to listen. I think my daughters have always felt like they could talk to dad, that there was no subject that they couldn’t broach with me. I mean, I. I’ve been in lots of conversations about boyfriends. I certainly would tell them if a boyfriend rubbed me the wrong way, but for the most part, I let them have their own age appropriate experiences, I would say. And I think that’s worked pretty well. They’re going to make their mistakes with their relationships.

Daryle Brown [00:15:57]:
I made a few myself. So I think I lucked out and found a good gal. And we celebrated 40 years of marriage last year. So as she reminded me recently, when I came down here, before we were married, we came down to the farm, this is the farm that we’re living at now, to meet Uncle Fred and Ahmaud and help them celebrate their 75th wedding anniversary. And my wife was like, this is how we do it in my family. So that’s been a mantra of ours that we’re shooting for 75 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:26]:
That would be an amazing milestone for you.

Daryle Brown [00:16:30]:
40 is good for me too. Now it’s a matter of living right, eating right. Let me tell you, this farm life, I’ve only been doing it for maybe four weeks, really being here all the time. And it’s a great exercise program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:45]:
I can only imagine. Now, I know both of your daughters are very different people. They went off and are doing very unique things, different than each other, and had different dreams, passions. Talk to me about how you supported your daughters in pursuing those dreams and passions.

Daryle Brown [00:17:05]:
I think you just have to be there on the. During the down times, when things are going great for them, all you have to do is ride along. But when things aren’t going great, when they’re stressing out about tests or milestones and things that need to come up, being able to talk them back from the edge with confidence, understanding that no matter what happens, it’s not the end of the world. But at the end of the day, you got this. You’ve got a whole history of success behind you. There’s no reason in the world that you should be stressing yourself out about whatever comes next. I mean, it’s just another step. I’ve had those phone calls when they were both of them on their own paths where they were just not feeling it.

Daryle Brown [00:17:47]:
I think that Camara, when she was working her way through her PhD, she took a year off. And some of my friends that had been through programs like that said that sometimes that’s good. Of course, as a parent, your concern is that they’re never going back. This is the end of the road. Not the kind of stuff I would ever share with her. I may have negative thoughts creeping in my head, but I would not share that. My conversations with her were always supportive and uplifting. And you can do this and just stick to it, take some time off, get your head together and then get back to it and you’ll be fine.

Daryle Brown [00:18:18]:
Similarly, Nia had her struggles when she was in law school. Law school is a burden. And a lot of it they do on purpose. You know, it’s a weeding out process and we managed our way through it. But I think for us parents, we need to be able to bear some of that internally and not necessarily be in that same rhythm. When they’re down. We can’t be down with them. We have to be that positive, that positive notion that kind of brings them up a little.

Daryle Brown [00:18:45]:
You’re not going to necessarily bring them from a depression of getting a C minus on one of your law school papers. You’re not gonna bring them up immediately, but you need to stay positive. I think that’s the moral of the story. As parents, we need to stay positive. They don’t need the pressure of us leaning too hard on them. We need to be able to help them get back on an even keel and not be down there waddling in the mud with them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:09]:
One of the other questions that I wanted to ask goes down to, and this could be from the past or currently, is what’s one way that you show your daughters that they can always count on you?

Daryle Brown [00:19:20]:
I think that unfort I’m not as good at this with my wife as I am with my daughters, is not overreacting, not getting out of phase, not getting angry, not showing anger, being able to maintain that equanimity. I think that’s important. They have to be able to know when they come to you with something that they know is going to piss you off, that you’re not going to go over the edge about it and that you’re going to be able to deal with them and deal with the conversation or whatever the struggle or helping them with a solution that you’re going to be able to do that without overreacting. I think that’s a very important thing and not easy, not easy to always master. And as I said, you know, it’s okay to walk away sometimes if you feel yourself going over the edge, because I don’t know how many chances a child gives you if you continually go over the edge, yelling, screaming, cussing, fussing, whatever. I don’t know how many chances you get if that’s going to be your reaction, because pretty soon they’re going to seek other people to. To get that kind of counsel. So that would be a caution for parents, especially young parents.

Daryle Brown [00:20:23]:
You can’t be jumping edge every time they do something that makes you mad. They’re kids now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]:
We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection. 66 more questions to delve a little bit further into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Daryle Brown [00:20:35]:
I’m ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:35]:
What’s one word that describes your relationship with your daughters?

Daryle Brown [00:20:39]:
I’m struggling between warm and humorous.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]:
What’s the best piece of dad advice that you ever received?

Daryle Brown [00:20:46]:
You know, I think that for me, I grew up in a relatively complicated dad orientation. I had a genetic father, I had an adopted father, and then I had a stepfather. So I had three men that could be framed as dads. And I would say that the lessons, the lessons I learned from my stepfather and the kindness that he displayed to my mother and me, his own children, to some degree, that is a model that I’ve used. So I don’t know how that fits your question, but I have more of a model that guides me than anything else. Else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:23]:
What’s one activity that you and your daughters love to do together? And it could be different for each daughter.

Daryle Brown [00:21:30]:
Cook.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:31]:
If you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Daryle Brown [00:21:35]:
Take time to have fun. And we do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:38]:
What’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Daryle Brown [00:21:42]:
I think I’ve learned how to be patient. I’ve learned how things don’t happen right away. And by the way, daughters helped me learn that. Gardening helped me learn that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:51]:
And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Daryle Brown [00:21:59]:
First of all, be patient with them. Listen, have fun. Laugh. Oh, my God. Laugh. That’s. That’s critical. My daughters and I, we laugh.

Daryle Brown [00:22:08]:
We have fun together and we laugh a lot. Everybody can’t be a comedian and my wife will tell you that I crack myself up. But definitely humor is so critical in any relationship. It just melts the challenges and the difficulties and the differences. So have fun with each other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:24]:
Well, Daryl, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing all that you have shared. If people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Daryle Brown [00:22:32]:
Oh boy. You know, I’m. I’m retired and I’m just kind of building my socials in a new direction. So I would say just send me an email for now. Darrell D A R Y L e q@gmail.com my link tree is justice work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:49]:
Well, I truly appreciate you sharing that. We’ll make sure to put links in the notes today. And as I mention mentioned, I really appreciate your time. I wish you the best in your farming journey and I look forward to hearing more about what this journey brings.

Daryle Brown [00:23:04]:
I’ll be tapping into you when I get some stuff going. I got a few things. I got eight trees planted. By the way, it’s a hell of a lot harder to plant a tree than you think. I got some big pots, I got some wildflowers, little things because I got whole fields I got to worry about. But we’ll get to that. Next Thursday we’re going to start the cultivating and the tilling and. And it’s a farmer’s life for me.

Daryle Brown [00:23:23]:
Oh, that’s a pirate’s life. Oh, I missed it. Wrong one. Christopher, wonderful. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]:
That’s a wrap for this episode of the dad and Daughter Connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn’t about being perfect. It’s about being, being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don’t forget, you can find all our episodes@dadanddaughterconnection.com until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Outro Performer [00:24:03]:
We’re all in the same boat and it’s full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your A game. Cause those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen carpenters and muscle men get out and be the world you down Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can.

Lead with Love: How Dads Shape Strong, Compassionate Young Women

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If you’re a dad hoping to build a closer, more meaningful relationship with your daughter, you won’t want to miss this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection podcast. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis invites educator, coach, mentor, and author Chad Mitchell to share stories and insights from his life as a father of two daughters (and six children total), as well as lessons from his new book, “Change Your Game.”

The Power of the Everyday Moment

One of the central themes Chad Mitchell brings to the conversation is the importance of the “little things.” As a father and now a grandfather, he reflects that the most meaningful moments with his daughters weren’t grand gestures or planned events, but simple time spent together—talking, listening, and just being present. It’s a reminder for all dads: you don’t have to be perfect or extraordinary for your daughter. What matters most is showing up authentically, creating spaces for laughter, listening, and sharing life’s ups and downs.

Balancing Guidance and Independence

Chad Mitchell is candid about his own journey learning how to guide his daughters while also giving them the independence to grow. He admits he was stricter with his first daughter, loosening up with experience. His key realization? Letting your children choose their own paths—whether in sports, music, or academics—helps them build confidence and resilience. He encourages dads to support their daughters’ unique interests, learn from mistakes (their own and their kids’), and “choose your battles wisely.”

Raising Leaders, Not Just Followers

A recurring lesson from Chad’s book and the episode is that leadership isn’t defined by age, popularity, or formal titles but by influence, kindness, integrity, and everyday choices. Dads play a unique role in helping daughters see themselves as leaders—right now, not just in the future—by labeling them as such and recognizing the ways they impact those around them.

Connection Through Listening and Vulnerability

Perhaps most powerful is the call for empathetic listening. Chad Mitchell believes that being fully present—with eye contact, without distractions—opens the door to trust and deeper connection. Sharing your own struggles and vulnerabilities, as appropriate, helps daughters realize they’re not alone in facing life’s challenges.

If you want real stories, practical wisdom, and encouragement for your journey as a dad, listen to this episode. You’ll leave inspired to engage more deeply, support your daughter’s dreams, and grow together, one honest conversation at a time.

Tune in and discover how you can truly connect with your daughter today!

If you enjoyed this episode, we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:
If you’re looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’re in the right place. I’m Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we’ll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let’s get started, because being a great dad isn’t just about being there. It’s about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have an opportunity to be able to work on those relationships, those connections that we have with our own daughters, working to help to make them be the strongest that we want them to be, the strongest that they can be. And we do that by learning, by growing, by continuing to look beyond ourselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]:
And that’s why every week, I love being able to have you here and being on this journey with me. Today on the dad and Daughter Connection, we’re joined by someone who has dedicated his life to empowering young people to lead, to serve, and to believe that they matter. Chad Mitchell is a educator, a coach, an author, and mentor, and has a new book called Change youe Game. And it in this book, it really reminds us that leadership isn’t about age or status or titles. It’s about influence, kindness, integrity, and the everyday choices that we make. Chad has spent many years helping young people discover their voice and. And their courage. And today we’re going to talk to him about being a dad himself, a father of six, but we’re also going to talk to him about being a father of two daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]:
But we’re going to talk to him about this book, too, and gain a little bit more perspective about his own journey, but also some of the things that he’s learned along the way in working with youth in this way. So really excited to have him here. Chad, thanks so much for being here today.

Chad Mitchell [00:02:21]:
Chris, thanks for having me. I’m super excited. The intro just gives me goosebumps. I’m great. I love. I love this subject matter. I love my daughters. I love young women, and it’s going to be exciting time.

Chad Mitchell [00:02:32]:
Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:33]:
Well, I’m really excited to have you here and to chat with you today and having two daughters, I know that your kids range in age from 17 to 35, so every child is a little bit different and your daughters came interspersed between the sons that you have as well. And I guess as you think about your two daughters, what are some of the most meaningful moments that you’ve been able to share with your daughters thus far and what made them so special?

Chad Mitchell [00:03:01]:
What are the most meaningful moments with my daughters? You know, it’s interesting that I would think they’re not if you. In the moment, they were just little things, Chris. They’re not. I mean, there’s probably a couple things like a daddy daughter dance that I would have taken my girls to when we lived in, in Chicago area, but I think a lot of them are just time together, listening, talking, smiling, and just doing really simple, seemingly mundane things. But as I get older and we have five grandchildren, all of them daughters, and I get to spend time with my daughters, being mothers now, it is the simple things. It’s holding a baby, it’s, you know, going to the store with them. It’s just really just that relationship. And there are so many little things that go into having a good relationship.

Chad Mitchell [00:03:51]:
And I would say just those moments of us together not doing anything fancy or crazy, but just enjoying each other and being each other’s company and sharing hard things, sharing sad things, sharing fun times and sharing silly dad jokes which they grown at still. But that’s all right. That comes with the territory.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:08]:
It does come with the territory. I’m not good at telling dad jokes. And when I say something that I probably didn’t mean to be a dad joke, I do get the groans too. So I completely understand that now. I know both of your daughters are grown and they’re adults, but as you think back to them growing up and you think back to the things that you did to help them become the women that they are today, how did you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into the women that they did become?

Chad Mitchell [00:04:39]:
So I think of Taylor Swift’s recent song Eldest Daughter, and I love the phrase that she talks about. Eldest daughter was the first lamb to the slaughter. And so I will, I’ll be the first to say, Chris, I’m a much better dad today than I was when our first daughter was born. So I don’t know how good a job I did back then, you know, as a first time parent. And you know, you have two daughters and that first one you probably handle differently than you’re handling the second one. And I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but you just learn a lot. And so I think I was much better with Chloe second daughter in terms of not trying to protect her from everything and trying to keep her from dealing with hard things. And so one great way to give them independence and let them create their own path is to try what they want to try.

Chad Mitchell [00:05:26]:
And whether that’s sports, whether that’s acting, whether that’s music, whether that’s cooking. I mean, giving your kids freedom to do and choose how they want to spend some of their time is a huge thing. And I’m a football guy, and so I wanted my kids to try football, except for my daughters. And that’s a whole nother story that Caitlin would love to tell you about how she was the one shot at letting having a football player, and I told her she couldn’t because she was a girl. Forgive me, Caitlin, but, you know, the kids didn’t gravitate to football, and so we needed to let them do lacrosse and let them do soccer and let them do music. And so I think just giving the kids the ability to choose their own way as early as we can in a safe way, is a huge part of helping them be independent and also learn from mistakes along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]:
Speaking about mistakes, all of us do make mistakes. We’re human. And as our children are born, there is no manual to tell us how to be a dad. And hopefully we’ve had some good role models along the way, but not every father does. So, as you think back to raising your daughters and having them be coming up through their ages into adulthood, what’s a mistake that you know that you did make as a father, and what did you learn from it about fostering either a better positive connection or something else?

Chad Mitchell [00:06:45]:
So I will say that my dad was fairly strict. He was in the army as drill sergeant. And so you talk about role models and mentors, and we have those for good and ill. And my dad taught me a lot of great things. But like every parent, right, There are some things that I observed and saw that were not the best thing to do as a parent. And so I think being strict, as I already mentioned, with my eldest daughter and even with with Chloe, our fourth child, I wish I would not have been so strict. And it’s okay to be strict sometimes, but as my wife says, choose your battles wisely. Right? Is it really important to be strict about this thing that doesn’t matter at all? Because that was my experience growing up.

Chad Mitchell [00:07:29]:
Probably not. Do we need to be strict about, hey, you do your homework first, and then you go and play, and that’s the rule. And sure, there’s little exceptions because of unique circumstances, but, you know, the exceptions can’t swallow the rule. So I was too strict with my kids. I got better, and I’m even much better today, but it’s still a challenge, and I wish I wasn’t so strict. And so dad’s out there listening, you know, find those. Find those things that don’t matter as much and let things go. So we’re not constantly harping on or, you know, talking to our kids about little things as opposed to the things that matter most, which is them feeling loved by us and getting a lot of positive feedback from us, as opposed to, hey, did you do this? Why haven’t you done that? You missed this spot on the lawn.

Chad Mitchell [00:08:21]:
I mean, very practical things that some you follow up on, but a lot of them I’ve found out, they’re not important enough to degrade the relationship.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:29]:
Every one of us as fathers have to balance that. Like you were talking about the support and the challenge as we are working with our daughters, thinking about how you supported your daughters, how did you support your daughters in pursuing their dreams and their passions that they had for themselves?

Chad Mitchell [00:08:50]:
I would show up. Sometimes it was just a supportive parent in the stands or in the audience. Sometimes it was stepping up to be the coach because they didn’t have a coach. Sometimes it was, you know, taking off work and going to see them do a presentation at school. I think showing up, Kris, is one of the most important things we can do and make sure you show up in the right role that you have. Because when I’m not a coach, I don’t need to show up for my kids at their soccer game and coach them. I’m there to cheer them on. I’m there to be supportive of them and their team.

Chad Mitchell [00:09:23]:
And they have a coach. Let that coach do their job. Chad’s not coaching. Chad doesn’t need to coach. My kid at soccer, I’m there to cheer and support. So I think showing up and showing up in a way that’s going to be supportive and listening and just enjoying the moment and enjoying whatever the result is. If it’s a loss, there’s an opportunity to learn something from that. Right? If it’s a game that doesn’t go well, there’s an opportunity to learn something from that.

Chad Mitchell [00:09:50]:
And if it’s an awesome game and your daughter hustles and maybe doesn’t score a basket but plays super hard, oh, that’s so much to celebrate, right? Just showing up and giving it great effort, man. There’s a lot of success in that little simple recipe right there. So reward that. Be excited about that when that happens, point that out in our daughter’s lives. When we see that that can change maybe a bad or a situation that they’re not excited about, to see the good in it and see the way that they put forth effort which we can all control and turn it into a positive. Everything can be a positive if we look at it from the right perspective.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]:
Now I mentioned that you have a new book called Change youe Game and it is a leadership book. It has has a lot of leadership principles within it, but it’s more than just that. It, as I looked through it and, and read through parts of it, it’s a, it’s a guide that really helps young people understand their value, their influence and the power that they have to change the world around them. I love the fact that you use stories and science and use some reflection prompts through with, along with real life examples. And you invited all of us as readers to see that leadership isn’t about age or popularity. It’s about, as I said at the beginning, integrity, kindness, courage, and the choices that we make every day. So as an author myself, I know how much time, passion, effort goes into putting something out into the world. So I guess before we dive too deep into some questions about the book itself, talk to me about the genesis story of why this book, why this topic, and why you wanted to put it out into the world.

Chad Mitchell [00:11:32]:
So why this book? So it was October 17, 2020 that I started writing this book. I went back once I got it published. It’s not available yet. It’ll be available in January. But I went back to say how long have I been working on this? When did I actually start? So I went back and looked at my files and it’s been five years and it was in Covid I was coaching, I coached spring lacrosse in Washington State, boys high school sport. And so that got cut off right before we had a game. I think the Thursday before we had a game on, on our first game of the season on everything got turned topsy turvy and we up here in Washington State, we did not have a season. So there’s a lot of extra time that I had on my hands and a lot of reflection, as I’m sure all of us did or most of us did during the unexpected Covid that shut down many parts of our lives about what matters, what’s important to me.

Chad Mitchell [00:12:24]:
And as I saw young people struggling with the reality of COVID and what it did to daily life. I was just trying to figure out a way that I could help beyond just the kids who I have influence over through church, through our neighborhood, through our community. And I felt like I should start writing this book. And so I started writing it, and it really. I don’t know that, Chris. I don’t know. That’s a book I could have written five years ago. As you said, I’ve been working with you since I was 18.

Chad Mitchell [00:12:53]:
The first time I coached youth sports was when I was still in high school. Someone asked me to help with a soccer team. So I have a lot of the experience, but I think the nuance and the perspective, you know, I’ve gone through some counseling, some therapy, and I just felt like I was finally at a point where I was comfortable enough with myself and really was trying to do it for the right reason, just to help youth and help us as adults figure out a way to tap the potential that our youth have, that the time was right. And so, yeah, a lot of time, a lot of energy. I asked myself, I’d be curious if you did this when you’ve written your books, Chris, is anyone going to read this? Is it going to make a difference? Am I wasting my time? Because so much time and a couple points along the way, I felt like this is worth doing. And lo and behold, here we are five years later, and it’s coming out into the world, which is super exciting. But I really would love to hear the answer to my question from you, Chris. Did you have imposter syndrome and doubts about whether this was the best use of your time as you slog through what a really hard thing to do in writing a book.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:55]:
Imposter syndrome is definitely real, and you will always feel that way. And you’ll have your people that you know will always say something nice. If your parents are still around, they’re going to say nice things. Your family’s going to say nice things. But it comes down to, okay, what are other people saying? People that you don’t know. And you have to always just kind of turn a blind eye to naysayers because you’re. There are always trolls out there, but there are people that will come out of the woodwork, and inevitably you’re going to find that people do really like it and that people will resonate with it. So keep moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:29]:
That’s all I can say at this point.

Chad Mitchell [00:14:30]:
Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement, and it sounds like we had a very similar experience. But one more question. Doesn’t anyone go through Imposter syndrome before they make it. Because at some point, aren’t we all imposters?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:43]:
Yes, we always are. You always fake it till you make it and you hear that mantra. But it’s very true. And I think a lot of our kids do feel that they have to be perfect, especially kids these days. And that’s a challenge right now. I think as parents, we have to work with our daughters to be able to help them to see that they just need to be who they are, they don’t have to be perfect and that nobody’s expecting them to be perfect in any way.

Chad Mitchell [00:15:10]:
Social media makes that so hard, makes it so hard for our young men and young women to not feel like they have to live up and measure up to the artificiality they see on a constant basis through their phones.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]:
Well, and so many filters. And seeing the non reality of what life really looks like when you look at people through the lens of an iPhone and through the filter filters that are provided there, it can make anybody look great and make the reality of a person’s life look very different than what the reality really is now. You know, your book mentions and emphasizes that young people are not too young to lead and that their influence on peers is far greater than adults often realize. How can dads empower their daughters to see themselves as leaders right now, not someday in the future?

Chad Mitchell [00:15:58]:
Yeah, great question. And so one of the things I talk about in the book is labeling a leader, and I’m not sure exactly why, but calling our daughters leaders as opposed to saying they’re leading or they have leadership. But using the noun calling them a leader actually is more effective than labeling it something else. And so one of the things I’ve done with my kids in my learning journey, Chris, is will tell me how you are a leader today at school. And he may, or Chloe or, you know, it doesn’t matter if you’re a son or a daughter. And they may say, you know, Chloe may say, well, I don’t know that I was dad. I said, well, did you have a discussion with any of your friends? Tell me about that. And you ask questions in the appropriate setting.

Chad Mitchell [00:16:44]:
Right. Depending on your age of your daughter, she may not be interested in having that discussion with you. My experience is daughters are more open to having these discussions than a certain age of boys are. But I think you can point out little things to them that they don’t think of as being a leader and label that a leader and talk to them about them being a leader and help them connect that, yes, this Little thing I do, saying hi to my friend in the hallway and asking them what they’re excited about and then actually listening to their answer and remembering their answer. That’s a great leader, right? That’s connection with their peer. That’s helping somebody else feel seen and cared about and respected. And it’s so our kids don’t think about it that way generally. And so our role as dads is point that out to our daughters and help them explore that and see that and how that can have such a positive impact on their peers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:40]:
One of the other things that I really liked in the book was throughout the book, you draw a line between integrity and inner peace. When, as you said, our shoes fit our feet, life feels right. How can dads help their daughters choose integrity, especially when fitting in or pleasing others, feels easier?

Chad Mitchell [00:18:00]:
I think the foundation that we need to try and give our daughters, Chris, is what I do in the book is explore principles. Right? If we have a foundation of principles that we try and use to guide our lives, then it’s going to be easier for our kids to understand why it’s important to be consistent with our principles. I mean, what principles are there? On just a random day on social media, there are no principles. Or if there are principles, the overarching principles are throw shade at other people. Look at me, I’m so cool. I have all these material things. And it’s so easy to get caught up in as we talk about in the book. But when we have principles that help govern our lives, such as I care about other people more than I care about material things, as a dad, I tell my daughters I love them and I love them more than anything else in the world.

Chad Mitchell [00:18:53]:
Right? And if they know that love is one of the principles that I care about and I show that to them, guess what they’re going to care about? They’re going to care about love. And that’s going to be an aspect of a principle, that they determine how it fits into their world. And so when we teach them principles about love, doing the right thing, even when it’s hard, being kind to others, being honest with others and yourself, it’s those principles rising to the surface in difficult situations. They’re going to help them make the right choice. And when they don’t make a right choice, we should have taught our daughters about making mistakes is part of the process, Right? Some of the greatest growth I’ve had is mistakes. Do my kids know that? Do my daughters know that? Absolutely. And I think that helps with. That’s got to Be one of the principles is mistakes are a part of life.

Chad Mitchell [00:19:42]:
We’re going to make them. The real question is, what do we do when we make them? It’s not are we going to make them? It’s how do we react when we make a mistake? And so that’s a great question, Kris. I don’t know that I did your question justice with my answer, but that’s what I got right now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:55]:
A number of your stories that you share talk about those that are Natural Helpers and Hope Squad, and you talk about that in your book. And it also relates to moments where young people saved lives simply by being trusted peers. What do you believe that dads can do to help their daughters become this type of friend that others feel safe talking to?

Chad Mitchell [00:20:16]:
The most important thing that a dad may be able to instill in his daughter’s, his daughter or daughters, I think is empathetic listening. And I talk about that in the book, Chris. And what I mean by that is whole self listening. You know, if someone is sharing with me a problem, so think about this as having a discussion with your daughter or she trying to have a discussion with you. The, the optimal way to do that is to put your phone away, is to sit and look at the person. It’s to not be distracted by other things. It’s actually not to think about what am I going to say in response to what Caitlin and Chloe are telling me. It’s I need to listen to what Caitlin and Chloe are telling me.

Chad Mitchell [00:20:56]:
I need to give them eye contact. I need to give them positive feedback that yes, I hear you. Keep going, keep telling me more. And it’s through that listening that we’re actually going to figure out things that we won’t know unless we can have that empathetic listening and the discipline to be in the moment, to care more about what that person is saying than what we feel or what we want to do. And that is life changing. And you’re right, Chris, in the story we talk about, you know, Hope Squad, they have had great success in reducing the number of suicides in the schools that they’re at by helping our young people understand how important it is for these trusted peers to listen to their peers and then to be trained so that if someone is showing suicide ideation, they know what to do. And so I think listening and being in the moment and mirroring and practicing that with our daughters. And I don’t mean practicing it in a way that is artificial, but I mean, dads step up, figure out how to do this because Anyone can do it.

Chad Mitchell [00:22:02]:
Step up how to listen effectively to our daughters. And, you know, if you’re doing it already, great, fabulous. If you’re not, watch that relationship improve immensely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:11]:
You have a lot of examples in the book also, such as Malala, Martin Luther King Jr. Huck Finn, people that were struggling or wrestling with courage, convictions, and choosing purpose over fear. How can dads invite their daughters into conversations about purpose, values, and doing the right thing, even when it might be hard?

Chad Mitchell [00:22:35]:
Being a dad is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. And so we signed up for hard things when we decided to be a dad. Right, Chris? I think being appropriately vulnerable with our daughters is a good thing. When we struggle with things, I think it’s appropriate and good to share that with our daughters so that they understand that dad is just not this guy who bites down on his mouthpiece, grits his teeth and does things that are hard without feeling that they’re hard. You know, he’s just built that way. No, our daughters need to understand we struggle with those things. And sometimes we make mistakes, and sometimes we’re scared, and sometimes we don’t know what to do because guess what? They’re having all those same experiences.

Chad Mitchell [00:23:17]:
But so often kids look at adults and they don’t understand the struggles that adults are going through. And so I think as dads, really connecting our appropriate experience that are hard for us, that are challenging for us, where we make mistakes that are appropriate to share with our daughters based on their age, based on their circumstances, based on what we’re going through, I think that’s a great way for our kids to see the reality of what it means to live a life. It’s hard. There’ll be challenges, we’ll make mistakes, but hey, dad can do it. He’s not as funny as he thinks he is, and he can do it. I can do it, too. And I’m going to take confidence and examples from my dad, both his positive things and his negative things and the times he screwed up and use those to get through life when I do those same things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:00]:
Now, Chad, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad Connection six, where I ask you six more questions, they delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? You bet.

Chad Mitchell [00:24:09]:
Let’s do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:10]:
What’s one word that describes your relationship with your daughters?

Chad Mitchell [00:24:14]:
Love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:14]:
What’s the best piece of dad advice that you’ve ever received?

Chad Mitchell [00:24:18]:
I don’t know who to attribute this to, but it’s dads Love your mother. Let your daughter see how you love their mother. Because we want our girls to choose that type of relationship for their spouses. And I know some of our listeners probably divorced. I haven’t had that experience. I’m. I’m sensitive to it. And I would say, again, not having had that experience, if you can still love your wife at some level, your ex wife, I mean, that’s going to help everyone in that relationship.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:47]:
What’s one activity that you and your daughters love doing together?

Chad Mitchell [00:24:50]:
Going for walks, especially walks on the. On the Oregon coast. One of my favorite things. I love it. Hikes. Well, I love going hiking with the girls. I’m not sure they always like to go on the hikes, but we always had a good time, the way I remember it, at least.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]:
Chris, if you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Chad Mitchell [00:25:08]:
Follow Jesus Christ.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:09]:
What’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Chad Mitchell [00:25:14]:
I got a lot to work on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:15]:
And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their daughters?

Chad Mitchell [00:25:22]:
Be authentic. Don’t hide the hard parts of life from your daughters. You know, as appropriate, invite them into that. Let them see that there are things that you’re great at, but there are also things that you struggle with, things that you’re unsure about, because they’re going to have all those experiences. And I think you equip them better to deal with them if you can have those discussions about your experiences when you’re a father and their experiences as they go through teenagehood, which we know is a huge challenge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:50]:
Well, Chad, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today and for sharing everything that you’ve shared. If people want to find out more about you or the book, where should they go?

Chad Mitchell [00:25:57]:
Well, I appreciate you having me on, Chris. This has been really fun. You ask really good questions. So hopefully these help the dads. If you want to find more out about me or my book, you can go to my website, jchadmitchell.com and the book will be available in January. And it’s change your game. Empowering young leaders to ditch doubt, find their voice, and impact the world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:21]:
Well, that wraps up today’s conversation with Chad Mitchell and what a powerful reminder it was that our daughters matter. Their voices matter, their choices matter, and their leadership matters. As dads, we have the privilege of walking alongside them as they discover who they are and the impact they can have. Thank you for being a part of this community of fathers committed to raising strong, confident, compassionate young women. And if this episode encouraged you in any way, share it with another dad. We’ll see you next week on the dad and Daughter Connection.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:57]:
Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:07]:
If you’re looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’re in the right place. I’m Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we’ll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let’s get started. Because being a great dad isn’t just about being there. It’s about truly connecting.

Unlocking Stronger Bonds: Shon Hart’s Guide to Dad-Daughter Connection

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If you’re a dad looking to strengthen the bond with your daughter, the latest episode of the “Dad and Daughter Connection” podcast is a must-listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and featuring special guest Shon Hart, executive director of Involved Dad, this episode is a heartfelt exploration of the joys, challenges, and transformative power of intentional fatherhood.

Real Talk About Fatherhood

The conversation starts with honesty and vulnerability—Shon Hart recalls a moment where his well-intentioned advice to his daughter didn’t land as he hoped. Owning his mistake, he shares the deep lesson he learned about parenting from a place of self-awareness, not old wounds. It’s a reminder that as fathers, our pasts influence our advice, but our daughters need us to step up as our healthiest, most present selves.

Building Open Communication

Throughout the episode, Shon emphasizes the value of open, empathetic communication. He advocates for creating a home environment where daughters feel safe talking about anything—even the hard stuff. Shon’s approach is simple but powerful: listen more, ask thoughtful questions, and let your daughters know you trust their judgment. By sharing his own stories—including mistakes—he models courage and honesty, encouraging other dads to meet their children with humility and understanding.

Supporting Dreams and Independence

One uplifting segment tackles the importance of letting your child pursue their own dreams, not yours. Shon, a former athlete, shares how he encourages his daughter in her passions—even if they don’t mirror his own. His support, whether it’s for her love of soccer or her entrepreneurial ambitions, demonstrates that empowering our children means respecting their individuality and aspirations.

The Power of Being Present

Perhaps the most resounding message is that fatherhood isn’t about perfection—it’s about presence. Whether it’s through shared traditions, like greeting rituals when traveling, or making space for honest conversations, Shon and Dr. Lewis highlight the everyday moments that deepen connection. When dads show up authentically and consistently, they help their daughters grow into confident, independent women.

This episode is packed with practical tips, real stories, and genuine wisdom for any father—or parent—seeking to build healthier, more meaningful relationships with their children.

If you’re ready to take another step on your fatherhood journey, tune in to this episode of the Dad and Daughter Connection. You’ll be inspired, challenged, and better equipped to be the dad your daughter needs. Listen now and join a community that’s all about connection, growth, and love.

If you enjoyed this episode we ask you to take a moment to take our Dad and Daughter Connection Survey to let us know more about you as a dad. You can also sign up to get our newsletter to stay connected to our community and we will send items of interest to you to help you to be the dad that you want to be. Feel free to follow me on the following social media platforms: Facebook, Facebook Group, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the dad and Daughter Connection, the podcast for dads who want to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. If you’re looking to build a stronger bond with your daughter and help her grow into a confident, independent woman, you’re in the right place. I’m Dr. Christopher Lewis, and the dad and Daughter Connection is the podcast where we dive into real stories, expert advice, and practical tips to help you navigate the incredible journey of fatherhood. In every episode, we’ll bring you conversations that inspire, challenge, and equip you to show up as the dad your daughter needs. So let’s get started, because being a great dad isn’t just about being there. It’s about truly connecting. Welcome back to the dad and Daughter Connection, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to come together, to learn together, and to be able to work on these relationships, these connections that we want to build with our daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]:
That’s why every week, I love being able to be here, to be able to talk with you, to walk with you, because you and I are on a similar journey. I’ve got two daughters, you’ve got daughters. You’re here because you want to build a better connection, and all of us want to do that. And I commend you for taking that step, taking that step to listen today, because that’s the first step. And showing up here shows that you have an interest in learning to be able to take that next step, to build and make that relationship even stronger. Every week, I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share their own journey, their own journey as a father, as a person that can provide other resources to you to help you in your journey in some way. And today we got another great guest. Shawn Hart is with us, and Shawn is the executive director of Involved dad, and we’re going to talk more about Involved dad and what he is creating in the Flint, Michigan area and beyond.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]:
But Sean has had over a decade of experience in managing and spearheading fatherhood initiatives, and he has been working with dads, and not only in his own community, but beyond, to help them to be able to build those stronger relationships. And I had the opportunity to first get to meet Sean through the Dads with Daughters podcast that I used to do. And I love what he’s doing in the community where I work in Flint, Michigan, but also in just being an advocate for fathers in general. And I think you’re going to hear it in the conversation today and through the work that he does. And I’m really excited to have him here. Sean, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you.

Shon Hart [00:02:53]:
Thank you so much, Chris, for having me. I’m really excited to be back in your presence, my brother. So thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:59]:
Well, I am really excited to have you back as well, because as I said, you know, we. We had an opportunity to meet, I’m gonna say, about a year and a half ago or so. And I love what you’re doing, but first and foremost, before we get into involved dad, I want everyone to get to know you a little bit better. So I. And being that this is the dad and daughter connection, we’ve gotta talk about that relationship with. With your daughter. So what is one of the most meaningful moments that you’ve had the opportunity to share with your daughter and what made it so special?

Shon Hart [00:03:31]:
Well, I have several. Right. But I have two daughters. But I will speak to one moment where. Where I fumbled. Where I fumbled the bag. And this was probably about two years ago, Chris. I gave my daughter so not so best advice, and it wind up doing.

Shon Hart [00:03:50]:
Was causing her to become susp from school. So in a nutshell, she was being bullied by some young ladies and me being a protective dad, you know, I told her to go to school the next day and to confront the young lady. Not to fight, but to confront. And so what wind up happening? The school contacted us, told us about it. And if you know my daughter, she’s very introverted, Chris. And I just really felt bad with her coming home, just feeling sad and me not being able to be a voice because she didn’t want me to go to school. She didn’t want me to go talk to the principal or the teachers. You know, she just said she’d handle it.

Shon Hart [00:04:32]:
Well, once she got suspended, I felt really bad, brought it up to the school. But this was the moment that night when we were leaving her soccer practice, and I brought it up and I asked her how she was feeling, and I knew she didn’t feel well. Right. Being suspended because she’s a daughter that really doesn’t get in a whole lot of trouble. And she looked at me and she began to cry. And so my thing was like, man, these jokers have my daughter feeling bad. She’s crying, she’s sad. And so my response to her was, you know what? I’m going to request a meeting with the teacher, the principal, all of the people that should have kept her safe.

Shon Hart [00:05:11]:
And her response to me, she looked at me and her response was, is like, dad, I’m not crying because of the suspension. I’m Crying because of what you told me to do. She said, I did not want to go to school and confront, I didn’t want to do all of these things. And that’s why she was crying. And so immediately, man, I felt guilty, I felt so bad because she’s very introverted, doesn’t like conflict. And I believe there’s a way that you can help teach your children to advocate for themselves using their voice. But when she did that, I felt bad. And so I realized that, Chris, that the advice that I gave her was not advice from a 45 year old adult.

Shon Hart [00:05:55]:
The advice was from that 13 year old boy, that 13 year old boy that still was living on the inside of me, who when he was 13 did not fight this young man named Titi because he was afraid. And all of the kids in the school knew that I was afraid and laughed. And so here it was at 45, I realized that I wanted my then daughter, who was 15, to avenge the 13 year old Sean. And so I put my trauma on hers. And so in that encounter that we had, it gave me the opportunity to confront the 13 year old boy and me and give him some grace and ask him to forgive me and go through the whole process. But I was able to tell my daughter that very story once I made the connection of what really took place and my daughter in my arms cried and said that she forgave me. And it was a powerful exchange, man. So it was two people that were healed in that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:57]:
So thinking about that example that you just gave, what did you learn from it that will help you in the future in fostering a positive communication with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:07:07]:
The biggest thing is about me being healthy, right? Parenting from a healthy place. Because my daughters and I, my children, we have a very, very strong relationship as far as communicating. My children talk to me about the most difficult things to me and my wife. But what was most important, what I’ve learned is, is that it gave me the opportunity to, to become a healthier parent. That when I make decisions or when conflict or adversity arise, that I would be a lot healthier. Being able to look through the lens of being more clear, not looking at, through the lens of some of my childhood trauma and parenting. So that was the biggest thing that I gave. I forgot all about that moment.

Shon Hart [00:07:52]:
I totally forgot. And it wasn’t until that exchange where I remember like, oh my God, I remember when I was at this age, I did this and I’m like, man, maybe that’s why I respond certain ways when my children Come home and say people are picking with them or whatever the case, I’m constantly reverting back to that little boy and me and how I responded in saying, I’m going to make sure that my children don’t do what I do or did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:19]:
How do you balance guiding your daughters while also giving them the independence to grow into their own person?

Shon Hart [00:08:25]:
I’m very open. I ask a lot of questions. I will give advice, but I ask a lot of questions trying to help them to come to the right conclusion and have a lot of empathy when I’m talking them through it. So I want them to understand that I understand where they’re coming from. Like, there’s nothing new under the sun. So I never allowed them to think. Think that their dad was always perfect. So where there’s opportunity for me to give my example of my life or other people, examples that I’ve known that have made or that was confronted with similar situations.

Shon Hart [00:09:06]:
Mine is from boy and theirs from the girl perspective, right? So even like my oldest daughter, when early, when she was young, man, we talked about. I’m a firm believer is that when your children get exposed, then you need to have that conversation, regardless of whatever it is. Because if I try to ignore what they just witnessed or was exposed to at school, it is my job, my responsibility to have that conversation, to make sure that they’re getting the right information. And so even when my daughter, my oldest, said that she’s 21, about to be 22, when she was exposed to sex or whatever the case, kids are talking about it. So we had the conversation and she had a little boyfriend. And so my thing was, at the end of the day, when we got to the place of talking about sex, my thing was like, listen, before you do any of that, just give me a word that we can talk first. Just talk to me. And so my thing about it, and we had talked about a whole bunch of stuff, but my thing was, what she knew at the end of the day was is that my dad was there before.

Shon Hart [00:10:06]:
He understands. My thing was like, listen, let’s process it. Let’s make sure you’re making the right decision for your. It’s your decision. It’s not somebody else manipulating you. Is not your classmates you. This is not that. And so, Chris, man, my daughter made it out of high school without doing some things or whatever the case, man.

Shon Hart [00:10:24]:
And when she got older and she was like, I’m looking to do this, she didn’t come to me first. She went to my wife, right? But she did bring it to me, so. Which was cool. And so that’s the type of environment that I tried to create, Chris. Far from perfect, though, but that’s what I try to create.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]:
Well, talk to me about that, because I think hearing what you just said, a lot of dads want to create that, but don’t always know the steps. Don’t always know how best to step on that path and move down that path to be able to build that positive relationship and build that open communication that you’re talking about. What would you recommend to dads in starting on that path?

Shon Hart [00:11:04]:
The first part, man, is to deal with self before I can even create a safe space for my daughters to feel safe enough to talk to me about some of their most intimate. Chris, man, I tell you, yeah, I’m keep it pg, But I just want to be very transparent, man. My daughter came home one day, and she was like, this boy was trying to get her or try to convince her that was okay for him to put his hand down her pants. And, you know, all of this stuff, like, she coming to me telling me this information. And so, brother, I’m cringing. I want to go to school. And like, yo, let me Adam, you know? But it was important on what my response was, right? Because I wanted her to understand that it’s not about the boy, that it’s about her, and that I trust her, that I trust her. I believe in her, that she will make these decisions.

Shon Hart [00:11:53]:
Because if my thing, if I would have jumped to, I’m going to school, I’m doing this, it would be telling her that I did not believe that she had the ability, the tools, and I didn’t trust her enough to make a right decision. And so I had to model what I promised her, that when you bring me the most intimate, the most difficult, like, we will process this, and we will come to a conclusion. And so that was a moment. She brought it to me, and I’m like, all right, let’s process this. And we gonna process this until, you know, my head, we going to process this to. You are on my side, and you understand. But, yeah, so that’s the first thing, is that you have to start working on you. And where you see that there are blind spots, like, really confront them, like, having that conversation of, like, man, why do I believe this? Why do I believe this? What can I do? And this is my last thing that I say as it relates to this, Chris, is that I am a firm believer with my daughters, because they’re two different girls.

Shon Hart [00:12:53]:
What I would say is what does she need at this moment? I’m big on that. Like, what does this individual child need in this moment? One may need something totally different where the versus the other may need something else. And so when I have come to that conclusion, it gives me the ability to make a better decision in this moment, not based off of something else. They may need to be disciplined. But guess what? In this moment, discipline is not what she needs. What she need is this. And so that’s why I try to parent from that place.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:26]:
Now, I know we talked about a week or so ago and your youngest daughter was out on a college visit and this next question really gets into that. So as I think about that, because I’m going through that myself with my own youngest daughter. How do you support your daughters in pursuing their passion and dreams?

Shon Hart [00:13:46]:
Man, that’s really good because this one, hers is in action, right? So me being a former football player, played at Michigan State University, you know, just high level, like all things sports, right? Like sports, sports, sports. And so I realized that, man, my life is mine and theirs is theirs. And so my thing is like, because I know what it feels like to wake up every day and, and live your dream and live your passion and do what burns you like that, keep the fire going. That’s my desire for my children, right? So I get to wake up every day and help people. The opportunity of helping heal families. And so that’s one of the most rewarding things, right? And then just recently, you know, I’m able to. I was unable to make it to the NFL, but now, Chris, I’m working with NFL players, been coaching NFL players. So I’m living my dream as it relates to a career.

Shon Hart [00:14:41]:
And so when you talk about your children, my daughter, who is extremely athletic, and I want to say this because this is important, extremely athletic, has the ability to do some amazing things. Well, I realized that she liked soccer, she doesn’t love soccer. And she’s been gifted with ability that can take her for, you know, places. And early on I’m like, man, if you would only do this and do that like you. But her thing is like, that is not her dream. Soccer for her is a ends to. Is. Is a, is a means to end.

Shon Hart [00:15:14]:
So she love it enough to where she enjoys playing it. She’s gonna give her all because she’s been gifted, she’s really been gifted to play this sport. And she’s gonna give you what you need. But her biggest desire is that she want to become a business owner. She wants to own her own Own hair salon, she want to do nails and things of that nature. Like that’s what really drives her. So my thing is like, yo, whatever you desire, how can I support you, you know, from that standpoint. So she understands that soccer is a means to an end.

Shon Hart [00:15:48]:
Will allow her put her in a position to get a high education, to continue to play the sport that she enjoys. But it will put her in a better position to understand business if she go get a higher education and to get the finances for the university to pay for it. So. So that’s where I’m at. Is that because I am living my dream, I want my children to live theirs, despite what I want for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]:
Now, what’s a tradition or routine that you’ve been able to create that strengthens your bonds with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:16:21]:
Man, I don’t know if we have any straight up routines, but there’s a lot of moments that they do. Like every time I go out of town, I come back, my 21 year old is our thing. I guess it is a tradition. She created it, not me. I can’t say that I came up with it, but. And I don’t know how much longer we can do that this job. But whenever I leave and come back out of town, she would like a little girl. You ready, Daddy? You ready? Yeah.

Shon Hart [00:16:50]:
And my wife look at us like we crazy, but she was sprint from across the room and jump into my arms where I gotta catch her now, man. She’s again, she’s 21, about to be 22, so she’s not a very little girl anymore. So now I gotta brace myself, I gotta catch this big grown woman. So. So that’s something that myself and my oldest daughter do all the time. And then my youngest daughter, she does this. I don’t know what you call it, rabbit ears or whatever. Like almost like a fish pump.

Shon Hart [00:17:20]:
And when we come in for the pump, I gotta guess if she’s going to put her peace sign up under my hand or is she gonna give me a fist bump so she always keep me on my toes. Okay. Is this gonna be a connection or are you gonna trick me? So that’s something. I guess I didn’t know that we had something, but I guess we do now. You made me think about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:38]:
Sometimes those moments can be small. They can be large, but they’re meaningful all the same.

Shon Hart [00:17:44]:
Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]:
Now, I mentioned that you’re the executive director of Involved dad and you work with lots of different dads, not only in your own community, but beyond. And I guess let’s Go back to the beginning. What personal experiences led you to establish involved dad and how have they shaped your vision for the organization?

Shon Hart [00:18:05]:
Unfortunately or fortunately. Right. Depends on what you believe. But my dad just passed away in 24, right before Christmas. By the time he passed away, we had a great relationship Prior to that, years ago, not prior to, but years ago, we didn’t have the best relationship relationship in his eyes. Quite sure he thought everything was fine. But as a little boy, I definitely was not cool with our relationship. Definitely didn’t know if he loved me or not.

Shon Hart [00:18:32]:
Definitely didn’t know if. Forget love. Didn’t know if he liked me. He was a man of very few words. Definitely old school, discipline style, and so very rigid. And so I just had some issues with all of that. And so when I’ve gotten older, when I started working in a prison, because I worked in a prison for 10 years. But when I got to the prison, an inmate, David Kaiser, looked at me and he’s like, chat.

Shon Hart [00:18:58]:
And they used to call me Chat. He was like, appreciate. We really appreciate the work that you do with us. And we are growing. But he asked me, he’s like, man, who’s working with you, who’s healing you? Because I guess he can really see some of my trauma that was still dealing with, you know, that I didn’t deal with. And so at that time, I still was dealing with unforgiveness of my brother being murdered. Gentlemen killed my brother. So I had an issue with inmates and then, you know, didn’t have the best relationship with my father.

Shon Hart [00:19:28]:
So. But my experience with my dad of him not being involved, that’s why we call it involved dad. So he was in the home, but he wasn’t involved. It allowed me to see work through my own while I was working with the men in the prison because I just saw a pattern of these men being incarcerated. They were leaving children at home. And when you begin to talk to the men that were incarcerated, they. Many of them didn’t know their real fathers or didn’t have relationships. And so that is what really, really sparked the.

Shon Hart [00:20:00]:
That sparked everything within me, like put me on that journey and path to healing families. And so it was working in the prison that awakened that for me, Chris, that I said, I want to be a solution to the children out there that felt like me that did not have access to a father so we could break those generational curses. So that’s where it started. So really wasn’t about the fathers, about the children, But I just decided that it was best for me to help children, to help the fathers who many people didn’t want to work with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]:
So you just talked about the fact that some of these dads were in the home but were not engaged, they were not involved. How do you define involved?

Shon Hart [00:20:38]:
Yeah, involved to me is being emotionally present, physically present. And if you believe in a higher being, helping your children to believe in something bigger than themselves. And for me, my faith is really important. And so I want my children to, from a faith standpoint, to know, not only know the God that I serve, I want them to have their own personal experience, to have their own personal relationship. And so. So that’s what I define it as, right? Just being available and being very, very transparent. From the aspect of. Is that I know that me being an entrepreneur, that I travel quite a bit, other people pull as well.

Shon Hart [00:21:22]:
As I continue to grow and my name has gotten larger and larger, that more and more people are requesting my time. And so it’s that balance. And so being honest with my children about what I can and cannot do and, you know, and making them part of it, just taking them with me where I can, you know, just keeping them present, like, okay, dad is going to be gone this time and that time. But when I’m present, I’m present. So I’m not distracted by doing these other things. But when I’m present, I’m here in their presence. So that way they can feel that I do care and that I do value them. So that’s how I define being involved in a short way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:01]:
Now I know that Involved dad offers a number of different programs like man to Man University and the Impact program. Can you talk a little bit more about how these programs were developed and their intended impact on fathers and families?

Shon Hart [00:22:14]:
Yeah. So when we started out with man to man, which was in a prison, move that to the community. And so we just started. I just created a peer. I wanted a peer to peer support group, place where men can come and just support one another in the community. And so in doing so, we began to hear the various challenges because I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t have a baby mama, quote unquote, you know, so I didn’t know what that looked like. I was co parenting, but we were married, so I didn’t understand the nuances of having to co parent with another parent not in the home. And so listening to the gentleman that was coming, we began to hear the various challenges.

Shon Hart [00:22:56]:
And so with that being said, once we begin to hear those challenges, we wanted to help solve the problem. And that’s where impact was created, where we partnered with the local friend of the court, because the friend of the court had access to mostly all of the men that we were working with when they started talking about child support issues or access to their children. The friend of the court or the Office of Child Support was the pathway that all those families was connected to them. So, anyway, I partnered with local attorneys, Legal Services of Eastern Michigan Mediation. So I connected with many partners that had some level of connection that can help us help these fathers get connection. What we’ve done that started to grow, get people connected. But what we realized, Chris, is that we were getting guys access without considering if there was any form of domestic violence or harm being taken place. All we cared about was access.

Shon Hart [00:23:56]:
And so once we became aware that, like, hey, in some of these cases, there may have been some harm taking place. And so with us providing attorney, what we were doing was almost equipping the father to further cause harm if mom didn’t have access to an attorney. Here we have this attorney that is taking them to court, and now the judges are ordering these guys to reconnect. And so as a fatherhood agency, we wanted to be very responsible. And so then that’s when we started doing work in domestic violence, ensuring, making sure that if we are made aware of a father, if he had history of domestic violence, that we would no longer provide legal assistance. We would still support him and assist him. Right, because we want him to heal and grow, because eventually he will get access to his child. But we wanted to make sure that he was required to go through domestic violence classes because we wanted individuals to be safe.

Shon Hart [00:24:52]:
And then we added supervised visitation, our family matters, where families that they are not ready to be alone or they do not need to have be in a presence of their previous partner, that we will use our agency to do supervised visits or exchanges. So we were very intentional about adding programs and services with a holistic approach. So not just through the lens of the father. We wanted to look at it a lens through the mother, father, and child. Right? So how does this child. What does this child need when there’s reconnection? What does that mother need when that father is now coming back into the picture? And so that’s our approach. And so those are still our three main programs, but we have dialogue, which work with young people and the parent, so helping them better communicate. We have our PROTECT program, where we have two fatherhood coordinators that go out and train men on how to be allies against abuse and neglect for children.

Shon Hart [00:25:55]:
And how to be an ally for moms. So that’s their sole purpose about bringing allies almost with the CPR model. And then lastly, we have our Family Forward program where we help families navigate the child support system. Both mom or dad, you have a child support case, and a lot of times they don’t know how to navigate it because it’s so difficult or intimidating. But they can contact us where we will help them navigate and better understand what’s going on in the courts.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:27]:
Now, as I mentioned at the beginning, I know that this program started and grew from working with dads in the Flint. What are some of the most significant challenges that fathers in the Flint areas face, and how does involved dad address those issues?

Shon Hart [00:26:43]:
The biggest challenge, honestly, is the fairness as it relates to having access. Because what happens is sometime, Chris, is that they go to court and a judge will order the parent to see the child every other week for an hour, every other week for two hours. That’s a very big challenge where you’re talking about having influence on your child. And you mean to tell me that you. It’s minimized to. Or just placed at an hour, two hours, put it this way, like four hours a whole month. That’s very difficult to have some type of bond and influence on your child when you don’t have enough access to cause some form of impression or to help guide. So that’s a very difficult thing of helping the families to navigate.

Shon Hart [00:27:38]:
You know, that’s very difficult. Unfortunately, I had a dad who was using our supervised visitation. He wasn’t in our program, but he was ordered to use our supervised visitation, Chris. And while he was at our agency, I could only speak at our agency. Can’t speak about what he was doing in the public or whatever. But it appears that he was making some progress at the agency. We still think that he has some ways to grow. But anyway, the judge initially said that, hey, you can have unsupervised visits for so many hours in a week.

Shon Hart [00:28:11]:
The other partner did not like it or whatever the case, so they took him back to court. It was really ugly. And we have to always stay neutral. Again, we only have a snap shot of this family. The families know exactly what happens outside of it. But. But anyway, he did not want to come back. He didn’t contact us, didn’t know all of the stuff that he was going through.

Shon Hart [00:28:35]:
But he wind up harming himself to a place to where he’s no longer with us. Just finding out that it was so difficult to deal with the case, him dealing with it that he thought it was better to harm himself. So again, I don’t know the extent of it, but my point of when I’m driving home is that we just never know where families are dealing with. Especially men sometimes do not know how to express themselves and they will stay in the cave and just was become isolated rather than seeking help. And, you know, and I just want to normalize seeking help. When you are dealing with difficult situations, especially when it comes to. To your children, we have to normalize seeking therapy, normalize asking for help, attending groups, the whole nine. So I bring that story up to normalize seeking help now from one end to the other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:28]:
Can you share a success story that’s exemplified the transformative effect of involved dad?

Shon Hart [00:29:34]:
Absolutely, man. The best success stories for me is when we’ve been able to have this gentleman who the dad was black, mom was white. The parents did not like that. They were interracial couple. Her parents wind up moving her out of the state. I don’t want to say the state or the city, but mom lost contact with dad. He enrolled in our program. We were able to get him to reconnect with mom.

Shon Hart [00:30:04]:
Years went by. Mom was extremely excited to work with us to help father reconnect with his child. And wound up happening is that we paid for this gentleman to drive to said city and meet his daughter for the very first time. And so that’s been two years ago. And now they have a very beautiful relationship because of the reconciliation. We gave him the tools on how to to be this new father, helped him to navigate on how to reintroduce himself to his child. So now that he has access and they build in this relationship. Just last year, in this previous cohort, we had a father who was able to reconnect with his son who was living with the aunt of his child’s mother.

Shon Hart [00:30:56]:
And he was able to get custody of the child because he had a safer environment for the child. Where the judge did agree is like, okay, you know what? In this case, it is definitely better for the dad to have custody of the child. And so when we have stories like this where guys who didn’t have access and some of the cases where the mothers are excited to say, you know what? We do want him to have access, but we just want him to be better. And looking at that better is him going through the program, receiving all of the education, the information that he need to show up in a way that his child need him to be. So we have many stories each cohort where guys who didn’t have access. Have access to their child. But we do it again in the most safe way because we don’t want to bring more trauma or chaos to those families.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:54]:
I can only imagine that leading an organization like Involved dad is demanding. How has this journey influenced your personal growth and perspective on fatherhood?

Shon Hart [00:32:04]:
First of all, I’m grateful. I’m grateful to, number one, my wife, my partner, my best friend. It has really made me appreciate her more, made me have the difficult conversations that were very, very difficult for me early on. Working with these men has helped me to become a better communicator. And so with that, my children get to see what a healthy marriage, what a healthy partnership look like. My children get to see the best version of me. Because if I’m seeing something taking place, I’m always reflecting. So what it does is make me come home and apologize, like, oh, my God, I missed it, right? So I’m learning vicariously through other people as well.

Shon Hart [00:32:49]:
My thing is, as I’m helping other people heal, when I’m hearing these stories like, ooh, Sean, that wasn’t the best. Yeah, Sean, you could have did that better. So I’m using those things. So this has definitely given me the opportunity to do the internal work. And I’m a firm believer of this, and I say it all the time with those that I serve, is that I never want to be a public success in a private failure. And so I let that be a driving factor for me, is that I never want to be someone on the outside that my children cannot be proud of on the inside.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:22]:
Now, looking ahead, what are your goals for the growth and development of Involved Ed in the next five years?

Shon Hart [00:33:27]:
We are looking to expand to other cities. So right now, we have submitted some grants, some opportunities that has come up. So we are looking to expand, expand to Lansing, into the Detroit area. That’s where we want to expand and bring our model. We believe we have a very, very unique model. The way that we do the work, again, taking that holistic approach, looking at it from all of the angles and not just creating the space for men just to communicate, but we are actually solving problems. So the things that men are facing, the things that families are facing, we are actually solving problem, getting them connected to the right resources. We are educating them under our roof with our method and models, partnering with the right people, that can close the gap.

Shon Hart [00:34:15]:
Because we really believe that if we can heal men internally and have them to show up as the best version of themselves for their children being more involved, reducing what it looked like for children to not have access to their fathers. We believe that we will change the trajectory of our communities as it relates to crime or children being harmed physically from people, from unsafe people. When a father is more involved, we look at it from academically, they perform better. So those things like we believe our model is one of the best models to follow and we are looking to bring it to other cities to make an impact and partner with the right people to make this, this become a reality.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:00]:
Now, if people want to find out more about involved dad, where should they go?

Shon Hart [00:35:03]:
Our website. And we are on social media, so involvedad.org I n v o l V-E-D d a d.org and then they can also find a lot about myself because I post or share. There may have been articles and things of that nature following me. And that’s Sean Hart S H O n Hart H A R T so. So between those two places, you can definitely find on social media online different places of that nature.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:31]:
And we’ll definitely put the links in our notes today. Now, Sean, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our dad connection. 6. It’s six more questions to delve a little bit deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Shon Hart [00:35:41]:
I’m ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:41]:
What’s one word that describes your relationship with your daughters?

Shon Hart [00:35:46]:
Ooh, adventurous.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:48]:
What’s the best piece of dad advice you’ve ever received?

Shon Hart [00:35:53]:
Don’t spank my daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]:
What’s one activity you and your daughter love doing together?

Shon Hart [00:35:58]:
Well, I would say travel. Those girls love to travel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:01]:
If you could give your daughters one life lesson in a single sentence, what would it be?

Shon Hart [00:36:06]:
Know who you are and whose you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:08]:
What’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself since becoming a dad?

Shon Hart [00:36:12]:
That I needed healing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:14]:
And finally, what advice would you give to other dads who want to build a lasting and meaningful relationship with their.

Shon Hart [00:36:22]:
Daughters to realize that it’s not about you, it’s about the whole. It’s not about them, it’s about the whole.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:30]:
Well, Sean, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here, for sharing your own journey, for the work that you’re doing in involve dad, and I wish you all the best.

Shon Hart [00:36:38]:
Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it, man. You keep doing what you do, brother.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:42]:
That’s a wrap for this episode of the dad and daughter connection. Thanks for joining us on this journey to build stronger bonds and raise confident, independent daughters. Remember, being an engaged dad isn’t about being perfect. It’s about being present. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a fellow dad. And don’t forget, you can find all our episodes dadanddaughterconnection.com until next time, keep showing up, keep connecting, and keep being the dad she needs.

Musical Performer [00:37:13]:
We’re all in the same boat and it’s full full of tiny screaming passengers? We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your A game? Cause those kids are growing fast? The time goes by just like a dynamite blast? Call it astronauts and firemen? Carpenters and muscle men? Get out and be the world to them? Be the best dad you can be Be the best dad you can.